Curse

pah01 · May 03, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

I only play PvE, but I use a Mo/E. I find that if you play your character intelligently, it doesn't matter whether you use Mo/E or Mo/Me. As you will use your Monk side 99% of the time.

Benefits of Me for the Mo.
1) inspiration skills - gain energy by disrupt, healing self or stealing from others
2) inspiration skills - good stances for self-defense and providing small defense for others (via hexing foe to miss 25% of the time)
3) Echo/Archane Echo - good duplication of skills or spells
4) Keystone signet - allows you to instantly recharge Signet of Divotion or Blessed Signet
5) Best remove hexes around
6) Disrupt others from disrupting you
7) helps with offensive powers (illusion spells)

1. Inspiration skills give you energy which allow you to continue healing.
2. No stances in Inspiration worth bringing even in PVE.
3. NO.
4. NO
5. Removing Hexes is something Monks should be doing - no complaint there.
6. NO
7. NO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Benefits of E for the Mo.
1) Helps with defensive powers (protect vs melee, vs elemental, etc)
2) Reduce cost of spells (glyph of energy, of lesser energy, etc.)
3) adds more protection vs spells to self (obsidian flesh)
4) able to cast long recharge time spells instantly (glyphs)
5) adds to AoE if necessary

1. Ward against melee should be brought my another character if its worth bringing - otherwise use protection prayers line. Wards are not genrally a monks Job, because a monks energy and time is too valauable for a secondary defensive role.
2. Not worth it - Its well documented that this is a subpar method of energy management in comparison to /ne or /me secondaries.
3. NO
4. NO
5. NO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Cons for both E and Me
1) devotion to non-monk attributes (takes away from healing powers) to be usefull
2) AoE effects can still be used by both (chaos storm, meteor storm, earthquake, etc.) without a single point in the non-monk attribute, but only for spacing out monsters from yourself
3) using non-healing/divine favor spells takes away healing from the monk

1. NO
2. NO
3. NO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Some spells from the mesmer's inspiration side to gain energy takes while to cast. Also takes energy to gain energy. This means that your net energy gain isn't as much as you may like. Same thing with Elementalists, the glyphs can only be used once (and don't stack) before a time for it to recharge. Reducing the amount of energy used (which again takes energy to cast) is not always worth the effort.

There are quite a few good elites for the healing monk to use, so using elites from other classes (like glyph of energy) is not a good idea. If you are the only monk in a group of 8, you must be very wary of you energy and who to heal. A reckless party member thinking you'll health them regardless of how much they aggro, you can let them die. Intelligent party members will allow you to heal them easier and without energy problems (or at least very little problems)

No this isnt true at all. Inspired Hex and the other skills commonly used like enregy drain/Mantra of recall/power drain are very much worth it and you will be able to confirm this in observer mode anyday. There is very good reason they are used by highly skilled players in GVG.

Word of healing is the only healing prayers elite worth taking from the prophecies campaign and healing hands is garbage, I wouldnt even bring this skill if it were not elite.

Using glyphs to manage energy is not bad but as I said earlier is subpar to /me and /ne.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

My build:
Divine Favor Max
Healing Prayer Max
Protection Prayer Rest

Divine Boon (provides extra healing and is a quick casting enchantment)
Orison Of Healing (massive healing with DF + DB for only 7 energy)
Healing Breeze
Word of Healing or Healing Hands (Elites)
Blessed Signet (regains energy of 3 per enchantment maintained, cost 0 energy)
Vigorous Spirit
Mending/Watchful Spirit/Remove Hex/Mend Condition
Rebirth

Depending on what our group will be encountering will determine which ones I bring.

Notice, my elementalist does not show up at all. My elementalist side is there incase our group has too many monks and no nuker.

Since this is a PVE monk build I will be nice.

There are four skills mentioned here which are still absolutely terrible.

Mending/watchful spirit/vigorous spirit/healing breeze. I have already said healing hands is garbage so that doesnt count here.

Blessed signet is pointless if you only have one maintained enchant on your bar.

Boon plus healing prayers = very inefficient healing.

Here is a build for PVE that includes rebirth as its standard.

Healing prayers 14
Divine 10
Inspiration 9

Word of healing
Heal Party
Orison of healing
Signet of devotion
Inspired Hex
Holy Veil/Revealed Hex/Drain enchant - utility slot(NOT DAMAGE)
Mend Ailment
Rebirth

This isnt a great build but having rebirth generally means that the monk is gonna be subpar from an aesthetic point of view - also make sure to use a negative energy set or at least unequip your staff before using rebirth so that you have energy to heal the rebirthed person if necessary afterwards.

Sam

pah01 · May 03, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

I use OoB all the time, in Fow (without the lame book trick, even before the nerf), UW, Factions, et al. The sac isn't that bad unless you're saccing while you're being pounded on... in which case you're not too bright. You kite before saccing in a situation like that... This works 99% of the time in PVE, since you can usually kite casters easily and just run past your tanks for warriors.

I've never had problems with the 33% sac, and most times don't even heal it immediately. You should be able to go most of the fight with 33% less health and be just fine...

I've tried recall and contemplation, they're just not on par with OoB in my opinion.

It is 20% sacrifice and before the skill rebalance it was 10% - You are confusing this with Blood is power which is not relevant to the discussion as it cant be used on yourself.

Offering of blood is not better in terms of energy gained if you have to heal yourself. If you do not heal yourself then Offering is better. This is documented.

Recall and contemplation is not only used for the energy management - contemplation also has a nice side effect of getting rid of hexes and conditions from yourself.

In PVE monks who know a little bit about positioning dont get targeted so much so it doesnt really matter since you could go in with the skillbar above into Hells precipice and succeed. PVE doesnt really count in terms of whats actually a good idea.

Considering from the OP members other questions on the board he wants to pvp and so all things considered Monk/mesmer is the best combination there is.

The mesmer class offers many more things to a monk than a necro does in terms of other dual purpose skills like inspired hex so there is a reason /mes is used more.

Sam

Tensai · May 03, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

ty all for posting your comments/suggestions/explanations/etc. i understand how much of a time sucker that can be haha.

---
i love you sam, that cleared up 60% for me
(1)

sir lockt · May 03, 2006, 08:40 AM // 08:40

In general when running PvE (without boon) I dont need any e-management, with a proper healing set-up. You can bring DS for back-up.... If you wanna take hex removals go for a secondary Me so you can bring inspired hex.

Never rely on a BR in the game. Even if its there... the necro has other things to do than waiting behind you to cast the spell.

In PvP you can consider both N and Me because of the e-management. Me has more utility skills, while Necro has OoB which is very good IMO. With the release of factions also boon signet might be interesting, certainly while running a boon prot.

Minus Sign · May 03, 2006, 08:46 AM // 08:46

As for Boon having no place in a healer line...I resent that. I was a boon healer in PvE for a good long while. I still consider it a good skill to use as an anit-nuke. the trick to using it well is to drop it when you don't need it.

And to your sample build: the only thing i'd change is signet. I hate signet. I despise signet. Dwayna's kiss/healing Touch wins every time if i get to choose. Or grab another emanager. Something--anything--other than sigoD, aka soggy.

It's a toss up for me between Mo/N and Mo/Me. i started Boon Protting as a Mo/Me and fell in love with it. But once i learned how to use it, OoB became a staple of my build. Even with the nerf, I learned to adapt ( and still think the nerf was completely unjustified. They were "balancing" a balanced Elite skill because people were using it? Yeah. That makes sense...

).

But this is an argument that is far from cut and dry. The question has existed for a while now; which is better, Mo/N or Mo/Me. In the end, I don't think there's a right answer. it falls to personal prefference.

Other than that, /agree with everything you wrote.

EDIT: yeah, boon signet got my mouth watering 1st time I saw it. Can't wait to see it in action.

pah01 · May 03, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Dont forget that signet of devotion is energy management. You can cast this while you are at zero energy while holding that axe and shield of yours.

The PVE build above can basically spam orison / word and signet untill he runs out of energy.

Boon doesnt have a place in the healer line. It is ridiculously inefficient and shouldnt be used for the same reason heal other shouldnt be used.

The best skill to use for anti - nuke is to spread out a bit so that the squishys dont get nuked from the same skills. I rememebr this laughable incident back in niovember when I joined a PUG to go cap eviscerate, we were fighting 4 of those sparks. All the squishys decided it was a good idea to take all the ranged hate from the sparks. Boon healing would have not helped.

The reason prot booning is viable is because they use multiple elites for main energy management. MoR/OoB/EDrain and it is a terrible Idea to boon without an elite energy management option. Boon healers is pointless because they have a decent elite to choose from in WoH and that makes boon healing unrunnable IMO.

I cant rememeber where the MATH was done but it is documented somewhere that boon healing is a massivly inefficient form of healing and to get it to its full effect you would have to let someone drop to 350 odd hitpoints where that person is in even more danger of his life.

Of course for PVE those things might not matter so much..

Sam

ender6 · May 03, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

@Pah01 I agree with everything you said regarding Mo/Me being the boon prot monk of choice. You actually covered every point I wanted to make regardign Mo/Me as boon prot.

I did want to add one thing though, the only reason to be this critical of a build is if it is being used in PvP. In PvE you can get away with so much ineffieceny and bad builds it's ridiculous. I am not saying that one shouldn't strive for the best build possible, but if you have found an interesting combo of skills that work for you during PvE and you are having fun, so be it. Personally, I don't like any of the PvE builds I have seen posted on this thread, but that's just me. If I were PvE monking I would do a modified Boon Prot build, but that's just me. Add either Sig of Devotion or Rebirth to Divine Boon, Mend Ailment, Mantra of Recall, RoF, CoP, Holy Veil, prot spirit.

PS I realize this doesn't address the thread topic

jummeth · May 03, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

You can't really get more efficient than a full healer. The reason Boon Prot is good in pvp is the fact that you can use prot spells to heal people AND YOURSELF, saving the need for a separate active prot/healer, which would be too inefficient. Also, skills like MoR and OoB work nicely, since you have a bar full of self heals.

Its less useful against spikes, but in 4v4 you won't get spiked to death in one hit so you can out heal it. Boon Prot also has the advantage of 1-2 ready enchants to be CoPed away. Add RoF and Guardian thats 4 hexes and conditions.

A full heal monk almost never ever needs a BR or even energy man skill, although its prudent to take it, can double up as a nice interupt. Its only when the poop hits the fan and you have had use heal other a couple of times do you ever run the risk of lower energy. That however is almost always caused by a bad pull or someone over extending. But energy man. skills or not, you are gonna bottom out in that situation.

In PvE you dont get e-denied, whereas in PvP you will be actively targeted. Thats why you NEED the e-managment skill in pvp but not necessarily in Pve

As for OP, MoR is a much better energy management skill than anything the Ele provides. Your skills cost at most 10e, and you use those ruefully. Stick to your fast recarge 5e skills and you will be fine.

Thats the final irony i guess, Full heal monks are very good at healing people, but for themselves, they lack decent spamable self heal. No heal touch and OoH doesn't cut it. Boon prot fills that problem nicely, at the cost of efficency.

Tensai · May 03, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

ahh i see...mm but im a bit confused pah01, you say boon prot is inefficient in a healer line but in another one of my threads you said it was a great force to be reckoned with and very good. lol im a bit confused, is it good or not? i know its very self-efficient but for GvG lets say or PvP, overall which would YOU rather have in your team?

pah01 · May 03, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

I understand your confusion.

Prot Booner = Divine Boon plus protection prayers.
Boon Healer= Divine Boon plus Healing Prayers

A Boon prot is not the most energy efficient of monks - but you pay the price by using an elite skill from mesmer/necromancer for energy management and be able to benefit from the side effect of protecting the target.

One of the other benefits of using a prot booner is in terms of the cast times of skills like reversal of fortune is 1/4 second cast which means you can respond to a spike.

You are also able to use skills like gaurdian and protective spirit to great effect.

A boon healer is just as energy inefficient as the prot booner however the skills in the healing prayers line are just not going to benefit the target in the same way as skill from the prot prayers line.

Healing has no condition removal - its just healing. The only skill in the healing prayers line that can respond to a spike is infuse health. That has drawbacks.

I hope that that clears it up a bit.

In Short
Boon healers/protectors are energy inefficient. Prot prayers line makes up for it by using fast cast skills to respon quick to spikes and are able to reduce damage while healing with boon activated. Healing prayers does not offer this and so the prot booner is made.

Tensai · May 03, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

ohh i see, so by 'inefficient' you just meant not energy efficient and not so much ineffective as a build in GvG and pvp.

from the sounds of it though, prot booner > boon healer in these sort of cases in pvp.

well the pvp prot boon build you gave me seems to be the path ill go when i get to pvp later on tho:

Divine 14
Prot 9
Inspiration 10

Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Protective Spirit
Mend condition
Contemplation of Purity
Inspired Hex/Holy Veil
Divine Boon
Mantra of Recall

pah01 · May 04, 2006, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Boon healing is a bad idea for countless reasons.

Boon protection is a good idea for many reasons.

Prot Booning always uses an elite skill for energy management, this wont mitigate the effectiveness of the build.

Boon healing simply cannot compete with a prot booner.

Sam

Zhou Feng · May 04, 2006, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodied Blade

In *PvE*, it's generally Mo/Me or Mo/N so that you have at least *1* energy management skill and are not foolish enough to solely rely on a BR necro. If you look, the Mo/E pre-made WoH build has no energy management skill...they just gave it a random secondary.

I prefer Mo/Me because it has reliable self energy management...I'm gonna 100% disagree with @EvilSod, most people do not have a pocket BR necro, and I have found maybe 3-4 times where I ever *wanted* a necromancer on the team (not counting 55ing). I would never allow a necromancer on my team simply for BR. I prefer a good minion master, which, in retrospect, makes you use less energy because you need to heal less.

I am contemplating trying out a healing monk, but IMO they are simply too stressful to play compared to a boon/prot, which is a much more refined way to keep your team alive...more using probability than using sheer, brute force. -an art form if you will.

To answer your question from the 2 options you gave: Mo/Me. Use Channeling and MoR/Energy Drain. You do not have to use Channeling, personally I have not experimented with it and do not know how successful it is at maintaining your energy.

Good Luck.

I agree with most of what you wrote. Channeling however is better in 8v8 HA or GvG. In PvE it depends how many mobs are within the monks area range. Area is equal to about three to four characters away from the monk. You can practice its range at the Nameless Isle. Its roughly about one dot more or less to your aggro center dot. If you use Channeling correctyl you can cut about 3 or more energy from any given spell. Excellent when casting Word of Healing. Just make sure to run if the enemy gets too close

EDIT: Healing Monks are equal to Prots people just have a notion that one or the othe is superior. I have used both and they are just as good. Prot monks have the advantage in keeping yourself alive more then a healing monk, but healing monks can deliver some powerful spike heals to themselves or allies. I believe they are both just as useful just some people specialize in one or the other. About the only monk I have touble using which I will practice on is Bonders.

Zhou Feng · May 04, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Considering Boon takes two energy for every time it comes in effect. Plus the energy to run it which would be 5 energy plus the energy from a spell like Orison of Healing, for need of using a basic skill:
When used as Spike Heal
5 energy turn on Boon + 5 energy cast Orison of Healing +2 energy loss when Boon effects are triggered 12 energy for a 130 something heal. Id prefer E Drain+ Heal Other most of the time.

Still Ive run Boon with healing rather efficiently, but rather because Boon was there to sac for CoP along with Holy Veil to remove hexes in Arena or as a last resort "spike heal".

ender6 · May 04, 2006, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhou Feng

Considering Boon takes two energy for every time it comes in effect. Plus the energy to run it which would be 5 energy plus the energy from a spell like Orison of Healing, for need of using a basic skill:
When used as Spike Heal
5 energy turn on Boon + 5 energy cast Orison of Healing +2 energy loss when Boon effects are triggered 12 energy for a 130 something heal. Id prefer E Drain+ Heal Other most of the time.

Still Ive run Boon with healing rather efficiently, but rather because Boon was there to sac for CoP along with Holy Veil to remove hexes in Arena or as a last resort "spike heal".

You shouldn't have to "turn on" boon all the time, so effectively the heals become 7 energy cost heals. And you do become more efficient with your heals, which is another positive to having to deal with energy constraints. To be honest the boon prot build is a monking build that was intended for longevity. I rarely see a boon proter stop casting or call for energy, while other monk types it seems to be all to commonplace. That fact may be simply due to experience or lack of.

Things for you to think about (as pertaining to PvP) when using spells like heal other:

-Cast time (interrupts/not being able to stop a spike)
-Energy cost (10 is a lot)
-Add effects (this spell only heals)
-efficiency (this spell requires that you allow the target to lose a lot of health before being utilized because it is a huge heal spell -- this can become troublesome for many reasons.)

But in the end, do what works for you....

pah01 · May 04, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

A spike heal is a 1/4 second cast spell. The only spell in the healing prayers line that is worthy as a spike heal is infuse health. Healing hands is a garbage elite and is almost as bad a mending.

Prot booners are superior in everyway to boon healing Monks. I have played both in high level GVG and Healing Monks are like sitting ducks, if they are being spiked they are dead unless the booner responds or they use distortion and end up with no energy being useless. There is a reason Many top guilds run two of them.

Dont ever bring channeling into a GVG match because you should never position yourself where it becomes a good idea.

Boon is also a maintained enchantment.

Sam

captainccc · May 05, 2006, 12:12 AM // 00:12

I always say that m/me is the way to go because of mantra of recall.

Your probably using word of healing so thats out of the question. Id go with m/ele because you can use various earth or water spells for armor buffs and such. All in all i think mo/n is best for healing and m/e is best for prot. Good luck

~Captain CCC

pah01 · May 05, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainccc

I always say that m/me is the way to go because of mantra of recall.

Your probably using word of healing so thats out of the question. Id go with m/ele because you can use various earth or water spells for armor buffs and such. All in all i think mo/n is best for healing and m/e is best for prot. Good luck

~Captain CCC

NO.

Mo/mes is best all round. Monk/ele is terrible or just plain SUCKS. Monk/nec is good too but you have to bite the bullet with a big sac. Did you read my large post in this thread above????

If you use word of healing you still go monk/mes for the inspiration line skills.

Sam

stocker25 · May 28, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Why the...are we having this debate when we can use glyph of renewal to keep divine spirit up 24/7 when not worrying about enchantment strips due to PvE?

Having every monk skill worth using instantly cost 1 energy is...broken as far as pve is concerned.

i completely agree with u. I run glyph of renewal and divine spirit on my monk and it in my opinion is the best e management possible. U can non stop spam 5 energy heals and even thro in a 10 energy 1 if u need a big spike one. Also if u are worried about the enchant being stripped who cares? U will have it up in about 10 seconds anyways. Also if ur a monk u shud be at the back away from enemy fire so it shudnt be removed at all.

So if u want the best possible monk build read about my monk / ele

Heal version

16 divine favor
13 healing
4 protection

orison
dwaynas kiss
heal other
healing touch
divine boon/ mend ailment / holy veil
divine spirit
glyph of renewal
rebirth

Protection version

16 divine favour
13 protection

gaurdian
reversal of fortune
protective spirit
mend ailment
divine boon/ holy veil
divine spirit
glyph of renewal
rebirth

if u have any questions about how to run this build plz pm me in game (Ign Mr smasher thegreat)

MetalHawk · Jun 08, 2006, 08:55 AM // 08:55

if you ask me, Mo/Me, because you have wide scale of skills with which you can have your energy managment resolved. OoB isn't bad, but I rather use MoR instead of OoB, plus you can add Inspired Hex as a hex removal + energy gain. & With MoR you don't have to self heal every time you use it as it's case with OoB cause you don't sacrafice health.
Depending on what you do & what you are facing (pve/pvp), channeling, inspired hex, drain enchantment, MoR, energy drain, energy tap... all nice skills to keep your mana enough high to heal up your party members.

This is my opinion tough, based on my expirience in pve/pvp.